李楯：就“人类共同债务”答问（中英文对照）
李楯：就“人类共同债务”答问（中英文对照）
Q&As for “Shared debt of human beings”
巴黎联合国气候大会召开在即，注意到你提出的与一般人们对“共同但有区别的责任”的解释不同的“人类共同债务”，及在“高排放国家”之外，关注“高耗能人群”责任的说法，想听听你最简明的阐释。
Paris Climate Talk is coming soon. We noticed the idea of “shared but not equaled liability” you proposed in the interpretation of topic “shared debt of human beings” and “concern in high-energy-consumption people beyond high emission countries”. Here, we want to listen to your explanation for your ideas.
李楯：责任有两类：过错或罪而致的责任；道义上的责任。
There are two types of responsibility: responsibility from the mistake made before and responsibility from moral aspect.
污染、生态恶化，以及，气候变化，导致胎儿畸形，儿童发育和成人生育能力受到负面影响，癌症和其他病症增多；生活成本加大，生活质量下降，以及，一些人生计艰难。
Pollution, deterioration of ecology and climate change have a negative impact on fetal malformations, child development and adult fertility. Increased life expenses and defect of life quality are also causes of environmental issues.
相对传统的法律中的因侵权行为而生的债，“谁污染，谁治理”和“谁破坏（生态），谁补偿”，于即时既难完全确认和完全做到，于既往更难明确认定和彻底追究，基于“以人为本”、“民生第一”的思考，把这种责任视为“人类共同债务”，有钱的出钱，有力的出力，有智慧（政策；技术）的出智慧，环境（包括气候）才可望改善。否则，说的多，做的少，争来争去，问题永难解决。
By traditional environmental protection regulations, people who produce pollutants take the responsibility of environment remediation. However, in a lot of cases, it is actually a hard task to identify the pollutant sources and companies who should take care of it. For this reason, the pollution issue should be treated more as a public concern rather than responsibility from a limited number of industries. Only by gathering ideas and techniques from public, financial support from relevant sources, and effective policies and law enforcement from the authority, the environmental issue could be solved. Words and debates rather than conducts could never prompt the environment remediation process.
另外，以国家区分，有高排放国家，而以人群区分，则有高耗能人群，削减不当的能源消耗和禁止奢靡消费，对治理污染，修复生态，解决气候变化问题，至关重要。
What’s more, liability of pollution remediation should be evaluated differently based on specific conditions. Countries should be classified by the statistics of total emission quantity; groups of people should be classified by level of energy and luxury goods consumption. A good classification for people’s liability in pollution remediation will be beneficial in environmental, ecological and climate improvement.
最后，大国；发达国家、新兴国家；跨国公司；拥有财富或者影响力的人们，在实现环境公正和环境正义上，还应负有道义上的责任。
Last but not least, from the aspect of developed countries, well-developing countries, transnational corporations and influential people, they should also undertake moral responsibility in protecting environmental justice and equality.
【问】你怎样看气候大会，预计结果如何？
What your expectation for Paris Climate Talks?
李楯：气候大会是一个“国”与“国”间的会议，但沿惯例，也有非政府组织（NGO）参与。这说明今日世界，利益与主张的表达不只出于“国”；所有问题的解决，早已不能只靠“国”，在国际社会与世界公民社会并存的时代，问题的解决，要靠多方的合作。
Climate Talk is not only a conference among countries, but also a talk for Non-Government Organizations (NGO). While countries are still the major entities in dealing with climate issues, boundaries among countries have been weakened a lot in past years. International community and cosmopolite are playing a more significant role in environmental issues than ever before. Multi-collaboration among different communities should be encouraged in solving environment related issues.
污染、生态恶化，这样一些问题，不只是国际政治中的一张牌，还关乎人类生存、发展，在我看来，后者比前者更重要。
Issues like pollution and ecology deterioration are not only cards of international politics, but also key concerns in survival and development of human beings. Obviously, the latter part is more important.
我无法预测这次大会能不能形成一个既有强制约束力而又有效的公约，但我希望国际社会能逐渐改变思路，把人放在第一位（而不是把“国”或其他放在第一位），认可、保障人的环境权，从根本上改变应对环境问题的方略和规制。
It is hard to say whether or not a strong and effective international covenant could be reached in Paris Climate Talk. I hope that international community should treat people as the priority in making regulations and consensus. Environmental policy should be changed based on the protection of people’s environmental rights.
【问】你所说的把人放在第一位，认可和保障人的环境权，具体指什么？
You mentioned that human beings should be the priority in concerning environmental protection. What does it mean?
李楯：人，不应只是国家发展经济，掌握权力的人和有影响力的人建立功业的一种投入（作为人力资源，劳动力或兵源的投入）。相反，国家应以人为自己的最终产出——以一个一个的，能够自主选择，活得有尊严，有安全感，不为基本生计无保障而担忧的人为自己的最终产出；一切政治家、企业家和成功人士的最大功业，就是使尽可能多的人丰衣足食，安居乐业，使人的生存质量和人的品性能够不断有所提升。
Human beings should not be treated like assets for investment in growth of economy or investment by influential people in making a better career. Countries should treat people as the final output of an economy or a success in some people’s career. Living with dignity and safety is the most basic and essential right for every person. All politicians should aim in improving people’s living conditions including ample food supply and good places to live, and thus improving the life quality and personality of each person.
至于环境权，则是指：每个人都享有安全的、能够满足合理需求的环境，并负有不污染环境、破坏生态的义务；国家对公民的环境权负有积极的责任。自 1972年《斯德哥尔摩宣言》起，为争取有一个有约束力的国际法中的关于环境权的规定，人们已经为之奋斗了 40 余年，我希望我们能够越来越接近这个愿望的实现。
Environmental right could be explained in this way: every person has the right to live in a safe and proper environment, and is responsible for not damaging environment or ecology. The country is responsible in protecting the environmental right for all citizens. Since Stockholm Declaration in 1972, people all over the world has been strived to reach a consensus in an international law of environment protection for more than 40 years. Now, we are getting closer to fulfill this dream.
【问】你所说的从根本上改变应对环境问题的方略指什么？
What does it mean by your words “change the strategy of dealing with environmental problems”?
李楯：治理，应从末端转向源头。
The pollution remediation plan should be more focused on the source of pollutants, rather than places where pollutants are found.
面对环境问题，有两个末端治理：一是针对既有的污染，在限量标准内收费，对超限量的罚款或处刑，这都是末端治理。源头治理，应是改变发展目标和消费模式，更新技术，降低经济增长需求——因为有的增长只为部分人的私利，或部分人间的拼比、赶超、战胜而需要。
In order to deal with environmental issue, two methods are proposed. One method is to charge people and companies that discharge pollutants in a quantity higher than the standard. Managing pollutants from the source is an alternative way to deal with pollution related issues. In order to reduce pollutants from the source, government’s goal of development and consumption’s pattern should be changed. New technology should be applied in order to reduce the environmental cost for growth in economy.
Since some consumption and economic growth are based on people’s private interest, these conditions should be eradicated in the future.
二是着眼人类发展，“环境污染、生态恶化”应是“最根本性问题”导出的次级问题，而不是“最根本性问题”本身。因此，就环境“问题”，治理环境，也是一种末端治理。环境问题表现为人与自然的关系，而其实质在于人与人之间关系出了问题。利益难以协调、衡平，导致的贫穷、不公正，才使纷争、暴力冲突不断，军备竞赛升级，甚至是局部战争发生。而在负责任的大国之间真正建立不冲突、不对抗、合作共赢的新型关系，在国际社会主流中形成有利人类发展的良好秩序，才是根本性的源头治理。
Human development is another focus in dealing with environmental issues. Environmental pollution and ecological damage are “secondary problems” induced by the “fundamental issue”. For this reason, solving the “fundamental issue” directly is more meaningful than focusing on environmental issue itself. In other words, the relationship between environment and human beings is more or less a projection of relationship between humans. Contradiction in benefits results in poverty and inequality, and thus induces violence, military competition and even local war. Only if a non-contradictory, non-confronted and collaborative relationship exists between major countries in the world, a good international order could be built and human beings will be benefitted from it. This is the way to solve the “fundamental issue” mentioned earlier in the paragraph.
【问】你所说的建立应对环境问题的新规制，指什么？
You mentioned the “new regulation” for environmental issues. What does it mean by “new regulation”?
李楯：“环境-生态”应被视为一种人类共有的公共财产。它不是个人财产，也不是国家财产。
Environment and ecology should be treated as public treasure owned by people, not private asset nor national asset.
人，享有能够喝上干净的水，呼吸新鲜的空气，吃放心的食物，获得相当的生活水准，有安全保障，不受伤害的权利，以及，参与治理污染、修复生态的权利，承担不污染环境、不破坏生态的义务；国家、国际组织，以及，跨国公司，负有治理污染，修复生态的责任。
People have the right to drink clean water, breath clean air, eat clean food. Their safety and basic life quality should be protected. On the other hand, people have the responsibility not to pollute the environment and get involved in environment remediation process, including pollutants and ecology remediation. From the aspect of countries, global organizations and transnational corporations, they should take the responsibility of making more efforts in pollutants and ecology remediation.
拥有财富、权力，不是暴殄天物，任意靡费资源（特别是不可再生资源）的理由；“贫穷”和“发展中”不是可以污染和破坏的理由；自己在历史上污染和破坏的不多，不是可以继续污染和破坏的理由；污染和生态被破坏不是自己的行为所致，或是不能确认是自己行为所致，不是不负尽力修复生态责任的理由，在偿还“人类共同债务”上，依据能力分摊责任。
Possession of money and power is not an excuse to waste resources, especially unrenewable resources. Poverty and “developing (countries)” are also not a reason to keep polluting the environment. Those who discharged less pollutants in the past do not have the right to pollute in the future as well. People should be liable to pollution and ecological damage no matter if the pollution is caused by them or not, and this is called “shared debt of all human beings”.
在限制或禁止污染、保护生态上，实行同一标准；拥有和掌握有利于减少污染、保护和修复生态技术的国家和大公司，有责任适度放开技术的使用权，并尽可能地提供技术支持和设备，以帮助那些缺乏应对环境问题能力的人们，改善人类共有的环境-生态。
One standard should be applied in restriction and prohibition of pollution as well as ecology protection. Corporations and countries, who own core techniques in environmental and ecological remediation, should undertake the liability to share their techniques and provide support for people and countries needed.
银行应不为污染和破坏生态项目提供贷款；公司须将有污染行为的企业、生产者排除于自己的供应链之外。
Banks have the liability to stop serving loans to environmental-unfriendly projects and companies; corporations should exclude companies with bad record in pollution from their supply chains.
【问】最后，你还有什么话要说吗？
Do you have some last words to say for the interview?
李楯：污染和生态被破坏给人类造成的损害，在相当程度上已是难以逆转，一些已是不能逆转的了。
To some extent, pollution and ecological damage could not be remediated.
从理论上说，一些人对环境的污染、对生态的破坏，可能导致其他人的权益受到侵伤，一代人对环境的污染、对生态的破坏，可以导致下一代人的权益受到侵伤，应该由他们来承担责任。但在相当多的时候，污染和破坏生态行为的实施者难以确定，或虽能确定但没有能力承担责任，或完全不能承担责任。更何况已经逝去的人和已经不存在的组织（如企业等）虽然造成了污染和生态被破坏，已无法再追究他们的责任，而尚未出生的人也无法在他们出生前为自己主张权利。再加上污染和对生态的破坏带来的影响往往不只局限于发生地，不为地面、水面等的边界和地下、水下、地上、空中的空间所限。因此，它可能跨越社区、局域、行政辖区和国界，甚至是大气层。而同样的污染和生态恶化对人造成的伤害，会因社会地位、所拥有财富、可凭借社会资源不同而有所不同。
由此，将环境权、环境公平和环境正义引入环境治理之中，要求各国政府对自己的国民负责，对人类负责；不要各算小帐，不要在环境问题上打政治牌，是解决问题的关键所在。且自联合国成立以来，在国际社会主流中，在相当多的国家中，对人权的认可是一种难得的、少有的共识，将人权（包括其中的环境权）放在第一位，而不再将“国”、“民族”、“宗教”等放在第一位，一些“死结”才可望化解。
Theoretically, People who polluted the environment should undertake the responsibility in protecting other people and even the next generation from consequences caused by pollution. However, in many cases, it is unrealistic to identify all the related people on duty; it is also impossible for those people to undertake the liability they are supposed to take, especially for people who already passed away. On the other hand, it makes no sense to let unborn babies protect their right of having a healthy living ambience. Also, pollution and ecological damage are not limited to the place where the initial pollutants had been placed. Sophisticated hydrosphere enables the likelihood for pollutants at one site to travel to different places and transfer to different phases such as gas or solid. While pollution could spread to different countries, consequences of pollution vary a lot because of a huge difference among countries in economical capacity, international prestige, national natural resources, etc.
The idea of environmental rights, environmental equality and environmental justice should be induced in the action of environmental and ecological improvement. Governments should be responsible for protecting not only their citizens but also human beings all everywhere in our planet. Environmental issues should never be treated as political cards. Since the foundation of the National Union, protection of human rights has become the main stream in the international society. Only if we put human right at a more prestigious position compared with the consciousness of countries, nationalities and religions, some “deadlocks” and contradictions could be defused.
环境问题，是需要善治的；协调利益，需要政党、政府、企业、非政府的和非营利的组织、社区，以及，国际社会和世界公民社会的合作。
Environmental issues should be treated carefully. Political parties, governments, corporations, NGOs, communities should collaborate closely to solve those issues. Also, international communities are encouraged to get involved in environment related actions.
本文作者：李楯，法学家和社会学家。清华大学当代中国研究中心教授。主要做制度研究，也做些性别研究和文化研究。媒体评论：是专家，也是行动者。
（注: 文章成稿于2016年。值此COP26举办之际，回看过去五年的各国气候谈判和全球环境治理进程，这篇文章给人们提供了颇有意义的视角。绿会融媒获作者授权发布。）
编辑：Linda
绿会融媒收稿日期：2021年11月5日